Non-hentai, in reaction to a terrorist attack in my country
« Bal tragique à Charlie Hebdo: 12 morts »
Today, three heavily armed islamist terrorists visited a French newspaper, Charlie Hebdo, and killed 12 people, two policemen and ten journalists.
Why ? Because that newspaper didn’t obey commandments from any religion and decided they had the right to blame whoever needed to be blamed in their eyes, that they could publish caricatures of everyone, even when bearded imams pretended it was forbidden for everyone around the globe.
Muhammad was displayed on a few of these caricatures, like the one I’m showing in this blog post. I photoshopped a literal English translation over it, as it’s an English-speaking place.
The cartoonist who drew that image was among the killed today.
I apologize to the non-fundamentalist muslims (correction : to the muslims, basically) that may feel offended by this representation of your prophet, but that’s precisely as far as it goes : if I don’t respect the commandments of your religion, that makes me a disrespectful person, and your personal opinions may make you dislike me, they don’t give you any right over my life and my behaviour in another country, under another culture. Those of you feeling more offended and feeling I ought to be silenced, hear me : fuck you.
Those fundamentalists and their killing didn’t prove they had a point, didn’t prove self-censorship is a precautionary rule, didn’t prove the Charlie Hebdo staff had it coming. When the blade is sheathed against the pen, it’s a confession of being on the losing side.
My sympathy goes to the dead, and to the muslims who, once again, will suffer having scum using their religion to wrongly justify the unforgivable.
(there’s interesting discussions in the comments)
It is a sad day indeed and for the sake of ourselves I will hope the French as well as Europes response to this will be measured, not be eratic and missing any form of dignity like the consequent invasion of another country.
I wish we would deal with this like the Norwegians dealt with the Breivik massacre, in a humane and compassionate fashion and without taking the events as a pretense to cut away civil liberties in the name of security.
My depest condolences go out to the folks in France, keep your head high.
In the case of the Norwegians, the killer was a mentally deranged person who picked on extreme right ideals and decided to upheld these in his personal manner, it was quite impractical to extend the blame to a much larger group of people.
I would tend to fear this is too much different, here, it's going to be sooooo much easier to blame a group.
And yet, just like in norway, the best solution is tolerance, openness, understanding, and respect.
"In the case of the Norwegians, the killer was a mentally deranged person" Wrong, he wasn't labled mentaly ill after a comprehensive investigation, and thus was sentenced to jail, not mental care.
Ah, my mistake, I was wrong then.
"And yet, just like in norway, the best solution is tolerance, openness, understanding, and respect. "
Respect and understanding? Do you know what that mean? Really? Then you posted this picture you reeeeeeaaaally manifested deapest respect for muslim's.
Freedom of one man ends there starting freedom of another.
Thats all(
My condolensces to the french people and you oliver. I agree with you, nowadays one cannot even voice ones own opinion. People get offended too easily even over paltry things.
The muslim community in general is often viewed in a bad light because of a few black sheep. It is sad for them.
Illogicality seems to be the new trend nowadays.
C'est peut-être con, mais aujourd'hui j'écrirai en français. Pour eux.
Y'a juste pas de mots pour décrire un tel acte. C'est de la folie pure, l’extrémisme porté à son paroxysme, et encore c'est trop honteux pour pouvoir être considéré comme un acte religieux, qu'on me dise pas qu'il y a une quelconque revendication derrière une telle barbarie. Tuer pour des DESSINS, sans rire ?! Ils sont réellement sérieux ?!
C'est une véritable tragédie pour les proches des victimes. Et ces journalistes, ces policiers, aucun n'a jamais rien fait pour mériter un tel sort si ce n'est tenter de faire rire et de parodier une cause qui aujourd'hui encore a prouvé qu'elle n'avait rien d'autre que la violence comme réponse.
J'avais l'habitude de regarder Arte pour les infos, où Charb venait régulièrement dessiner durant l'émission. Se dire qu'il est mort pour ça, ainsi que des gens talentueux comme Wolinski, Tignous et Cabu, qui représentent depuis longtemps (Hara-Kiri au moins) l’irrévérence et l'humour noir pour notre plus grand amusement…c'est véritablement la liberté d'expression qu'on a tenté d'assassiner aujourd'hui, car des journaux et des personnes comme ça, y'en pas beaucoup et c'est cette liberté de parole qui leur a coûté la vie.
Et comme tu l'as souligné, les conséquences sont également à craindre, notamment pour la communauté musulmane, qui va encore s'attirer toutes les haines au grand plaisir de certaines (ou CERTAINES) alors qu'une bonne partie n'a jamais rien demandé.
Olivier,
En tant que Français, MERCI pour cette tribune de soutien moral et/ou intellectuel envers mes compatriotes présents lors de cet ATTENTAT TERRORISTE !!
MERCI !! MERCI !! MERCI !!
Oliver,
As French, I would like to THAN YOU for your article of moral and/or intellectual support towards my fellow Frenchmen & Woman who were present during that TERRORIST ATTACK !!
THANK YOU !! THANK YOU !! THANK YOU !!
P.S.: Olivier,
J’aurai voulu inséré l’image « JE SUIS CHARLIE », en soutient, mais malheureusement je n’ai absolument aucune idée comment je peux le faire !!
Pourrais-tu le faire pour moi ou devrais-je dire pour eux ??
MERCI !! MERCI !! MERCI !!
Oliver,
I wish I could had join the picture « JE SUIS CHARLIE », as a support, but unfortunately I had absolutely no fu.. idea how I can do it !!
Do you think you can do it for me or should I say for them ??
THANK YOU !! THANK YOU !! THANK YOU !!
Yop. You can simply use < img src="url to the picture, for instance at imgur" > , but remove the spaces before and after the < and > tags.
Also, /hugs
I haven't place the "JE SUIS CHARLIE" image because I didn't feel like associating it with a porn blog, and I believe it is a much more relevant reply to post one of the Muhammad images, to show we won't be silenced by what they wanted to mute.
Je pense pas que tu aies besoin qu'on te le dise, mais effectivement je trouve que c'est une très belle réaction.
Après ça ne regarde que moi, mais je trouve que l'image "JE SUIS CHARLIE" est hypocrite dans beaucoup de cas. Elle se propage évidemment de façon pandémique sur Facebook, quand plus de la moitié des gens n'ont probablement jamais lu un seul Charlie Hebdo. Je pense principalement aux jeunes et aux gens de mon âge, qui, s'ils suivent les infos, ne font que regarder le JT sur les grosses chaînes ou suivre l'actu sur Internet. A mes yeux, ce n'est pas "être" Charlie, mais je comprends le message de soutien derrière évidemment, l'heure n'est pas à la critique de toute façon.
Tout a fait d'accord avec toi !
Hmm, pas trop d'accord, là. Pensez à "Ich bin ein berliner", combien l'ont clamé sans jamais avoir posé le pied en Allemagne ?
L'idée est justement de montrer que l'on se sent partie du groupe qui soutient et qui veut partager sa chaleur humaine.
Moi, je ne l'ai pas placé pour ne pas le "salir" avec du porno. Cela m'aurait paru aussi déplacé que la reprise qu'en ont fait les 3Suisses : pas techniquement invalide, mais de mauvais goût.
Yop. You can simply use < img src="url to the picture, for instance at imgur" > , but remove the spaces before and after the < and > tags.
Also, /hugs
I don’t understand a bit, I feel like you’re talking to me in aramean and/or martian !!
For you, maybe it’s simple, but for me it’s too much complicate !!
I haven't place the "JE SUIS CHARLIE" image because I didn't feel like associating it with a porn blog, and I believe it is a much more relevant reply to post one of the Muhammad images, to show we won't be silenced by what they wanted to mute.
You’re damn right !! I approve !!
Sorry then, you'll need to train yourself placing some HTML here and there, I can't make it more simpler ^^
Here here. I have not always supported the French in their decisions. But NOBODY deserves to be killed by these asshole just for having an opionion.
absolutely true.
The beasts do not need reasons. If reasons do not exist, the will invent them:
they mention God, but they do not have any religion;
they mention football teams, but they do not support sports;
the mention political parties, but they do not have ideologies.
They believe in destruction, only in their freedom of speech and their free will.
We are facing the triumph of the beasts.
Not their triumph.
Their resorting to violence only showed they had no other ways to react, and now they've done it, the stubborn french will be even keener to keep on doing what drove them mad. Even the Charlie newspaper isn't dead.
We have that expression, the "Flamby effect", which is slightly different from the Streisand effect : do you know Flamby yoghurts ? A sort of custard yoghurt. If you crush a flamby, you haven't destroyed it, you have simply spread more of it everywhere.
Merci a toi Oliver.
Briefly, this is just one more example of persons acting upon their own particular concept of (their) God or Religion – a concept which, if one would analyze it, is in all likelihood as far removed from what their own scriptures teach, as day is separate from night. And it doesn't apply solely to Islam. Which makes these words all the more true regarding the perpetrators of this act:
"The LORD says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught." – Isaiah 29:13 (NIV)
Pity.
Ah, about this, it's not really about religion stricto sensu. It's about people.
There are and always be the dynamics of civilization. Currently, religious islam is THE most dynamic civilization, gaining greater and greater numbers and influence worldwide.
A civilization needs not be a monolithic state. It can be a shared philosophy or life, a set rules of common life and organization of society.
In itself, that's normal, there are always dynamic civilizations, while some others are falling back and losing ground.
Currently, Islam is the civilization factor with the greatest momentum.
It will mean that a greater and greater number of deranged people who had a strong inner liking for violence will be able to find a compatible outlet to justify violence : islam.
If buddhism was the religion gaining momentum and being spread fast everywhere, then we can safely bet even peaceful buddhism would have been distorted into allowing violence.
Islam was a convenient means.
But it's not just that. Religions always build themselves a sort of shell, its as if us humans are having a trend to systematically build institutions around a powerful train of thought.
As it gets institutionalized, it gathers all factions, there will always be extremists among them, who'll find their reason for living in blaming people not living under the same rules.
Those extremists will be breeding more hatred, spreading hatred to other gullible idiots, and a new cycle of self-nurtured hatred will be born.
See the idea ? It's not about islam, really, it's about the dynamics of civilization. It has always been providing an excuse for violence, first, and, second, it has always allowed to nurtured self-sustained vicious circle of corrupting minds into being violent and intolerant.
" a set rules of common life and organization of society."
and who makes these rules?
surely not god correct?
maybe you should make the rules?
That’s the only time I am going to reply to you and your kind in situations like the present one.
I don’t answer to trolls, provocations or manifestations of an empty brain. Nobody should have the time or that.
I might reply to you elsewhere, but that will be only if you’re writing something making sense and/or actually contributing to the topic at hand.
provocative yes, troll maybe, manifestation of an empty brain, I hope not. apologies for the caps but google won't tell me how to bold.
i wanted to know more about your take on the "dynamics of civilization" but i can see there will be no answer forthcoming so be it.
YOU: "It can be a shared philosophy or life, a set rules of common life and organization of society. "
your idea fails because you assume the society and its "rules" we were brought up in are true and apply for everybody (things like freedom of speech, personal freedoms and rights, right to privacy etc). And although I AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY, there are many OTHER people who do not feel that way, people who do not live by the same "rules" that we do. THAT'S WHAT IT'S REALLY about – it's about different, non-compatible ideas about how we should be living our lives; after all, who are we to question those who live HAPPILY under a theocracy, a necrocrasy (mausolocracy, thanatocracy – like north korea), a dictatorship, those who believe in god or superstition, people who practice satanism and black magic etc.? Everybody is ultimately the same in this respect – we are just people with an opinion.
I want to say that I have nothing against you personally Oliver and I hope my time here will be short because I do so love replying to provocations. But by posting a deliberately provocative picture that is offensive to A DIFFERENT culture and claiming that it is YOUR right, YOU ARE imposing your principles and ideas onto that other culture and a group of people who may not appreciate it. And although it IS your right to do that, freedom of speech comes with a price: freedom of speech MUST mean a freedom to offend (and criticize) and those who are offended do not always act rationally.
The publishers should have been a little bit more thoughtful about exactly what it was they were getting into. I'm sure nobody there was prepared to lay down their lives to protect our personal freedoms (I wouldn't be) as much as everybody loves martyrs. I do not condone violence and no one has a right to resort to terrorism – but violent people simply do not give a shit and their ways, although repulsive, are very effective at achieving THEIR short term goals (restore the honor of their prophet/god, make it into heaven or just make themselves feel better by killing a bunch of "infidels"); although violence should NEVER be the answer it often is.
I'm not a Catholic but if Tenth Crusade is called would anyone mind if I joined in anyway?
Are you a telepath ? If you aren't, good luck with your crusade, for the enemy is among you, and the countries where they reside in greater numbers are still in vast majority populated by people who don't deserve to suffer your violence and who, even if they disagree with you, would condemn violence against you if they were asked.
That's no crusade material, and it has never been.
that's stupid let answer Barbary with hatred and destruction let the terrorist win. Let's launch ourselves in the gaping maw of war .
Arent NATO(and France as part of it) already star so many war's against arabian in last twenty years, that 12 people is nothing against thousand's?
My depest condolences go out to the folks in France
I am also muslim, i am also imperfect person.
I am sorry for my extremist brother who killed your father, mother, daugther, son, friends.
I am soo sorry, but not all muslim like that.
i am not to justify their doing but not all muslim like that
For me and us Prophet Mohammad is unrepleaceable figure, so its not acceptable to us Prophet Mohammad to bacame cartoon or some another actor who acts to become like him.
If you want critize us please dont take your anger to Prophet Mohammad. critize us, blame us.
again please forgive my extremist brother, but not all muslim like them
forgive me to say this it just like in your religion some maybe became criminal, but there are many good people, are they.
Please would you mind to remove this picture about Prophet Mohammad please…
Erfahmi, I'm not blaming you at all
I placed that picture because it's one of the pics that got these journalists killed.
And if those pictures are deleted and the voices of criticism are muted, the terrorists have won.
I don't have anything against Muhammad, actually. I believe there's as much relation between the historic figure and the real man than there is for another of the prophets, Jesus : not much, but as long as it works as a role model and an example, sure, why not.
So, I'm not removing that picture. That's the whole point : if you disagree, then you disagree. If you think I'm wrong, you think it.
But that only means we have a strong disagreement that is upsetting you.
It doesn't mean you have the right to have me shut up.
Otherwise, look, Erfahmi, what would that mean ?
It would mean any religious group, anywhere, could say something is strongly upsetting them, and we need not say this. Or that. Or say even that. That we shouldn't laugh about it. About that. About those other things.
We wouldn't be able to say anything at all anymore.
It doesn't matter whether we like it or not, we now live in a globalized world, where there are unavoidable contacts between groups not thinking the same things.
And when we see something that we don't like from another group, the right answer
– is NOT violence and censorship
– is to simply look away, and accept that we don't think the same things
I hope you're understanding my point, I really would like to have made you understand me, Erfahmi
I don't think you realize your picture IS RELIGIOUS HATRED. Just because the picture does nothing to you it does not mean it is the same for others. Lots of people are deeply offended by your picture and by posting it on your website you are becoming a part of an ignorance and hatred which was the catalyst for the violence in the first place, which is fine if that is what you intended to do (freedom of speech remember), but to speak of acceptance and understanding while doing it makes you a hypocrite.
You have no understanding of what religion is or how it makes them feel or why anyone would go to such lengths to DEFEND it.
there is nothing to win or lose. you idiot.
Should someone being offended mean that you can't produce something? Of course not! That's what freedom of speech is all about.
Should someone die because they create an offensive or, as you say, the embodiment of hatred against a religion? FUCK NO.
"by posting it on your website you are becoming a part of an ignorance and hatred which was the catalyst for the violence in the first place" Posting a picture of something should never be a catalyst for violence. It's almost like you're saying that they're stupid for drawing a cartoon because some cunt was dumb enough to think they should die for it. NO, drawing a cartoon (even one that criticises Islam or any other religion) should not be a death sentence.
you're right they shouldn't but would you post a picture KNOWING how fundamentalists and MANY "NORMAL" muslims feel about making muhammad into caricature?
should someone die? no. have people died? yes, and very many of them.
religion and freedom of speech cannot co exist.
Then religion should go. I for one will not give up on freedom of speech and while many people say things that bother, disturb, offend, insult, and sometimes even gross me out, I do believe they are allowed to do it.
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." (Voltaire)
Words the folks at Charlie live by. (and I use the present tense deliberately)
Religion IS speech. You cannot ban religion and still be considered a country that believes in freedom of speech. You can allow for religious rights without granting said religions superceding rights(blasphemy laws, justified violence) over other rights. It's because we have allowed religious bodies a sanctified place in our societies that adherents feel entitled to supercede the laws of man.
yes because the laws of man are far more significant than a bunch of made up ones.
you are correct.
but there are people who do not think this way. the religious have always felt gods word was more significant than those made by men or that the laws that we (and they) follow are somehow divine.
words that they have died by as well by the looks of things. And what a petty way to go.
only mentally retarded people said religion and freedom of speech cannot exist while the world had show us many proof about it.
how trivial the laws of MAN must seem next to the WORD OF GOD.
The caricatures of Mohammed were not the catalyst for the attack. That's the justification used by the attackers. The real catalyst is the belief that there are certain things that may not be said. The belief that violence can be justified on the non-violent. The cartoon of Mohammed pictured above decries the violence of extremism. That you may consider him so sacred as to not be exploited by anyone is your own opinion but faith is a personal endeavor that does not bind others to it.
The only god I believe in is myself.
Your entire post is one massive strawman. Either that or you are clinically retarded.
"simply look away, and accept that we don't think the same things "
actually, one can do a lot more than just THINK it. He/she is free to voice his opinion. THAT is freedom of speech.
"Otherwise, look, Erfahmi, what would that mean ?
It would mean any religious group, anywhere, could say something is strongly upsetting them, and we need not say this. Or that. Or say even that. That we shouldn't laugh about it. About that. About those other things.
We wouldn't be able to say anything at all anymore. "
You can say whatever you want. But do not claim what you say is not offensive when CLEARLY, it is.
You have no right to live your life without ever being offended. Nobody does. Other people are going to offend you from time to time. Grow up and learn to deal with it!
"its not acceptable to us Prophet Mohammad to bacame cartoon or some another actor who acts to become like him"
If you can't take a joke, you might be narrow minded. Now, what about provocation, like putting posters of mohammad sucking dicks in Paris (in hope for Paris to get eradicated by terrorists because it's way too pricey to live in :p). How would you react ? Why so serious ?
Hey look I forgot to put a capital M to mohammad ! I know I should die in alot of pain, along with my friends and family !
Anyway, stupid people have never been so dangerous…
Atheists should have their "holy" war too, war against extremists. NOW !
if you are willing to find funding for me…
Quelqu'un un jour m'a dit que la violence était le seul moyen que certains ont d'essayer de prouver leurs points, parce qu'ils savent inconsciemment que les mots leurs prouveront le contraire.
Je suis Québécois, au mois d'octobre dernier 2 de mes… je sais même pas si je peux appeler ça des concitoyens, ont décidé, sur le sol du Canada, mon Pays(même si je suis indépendantiste), de faire deux attentats réussis, du moins en partie, qui ont fait deux victimes, deux militaires. Olivier, j'aimerais simplement que tu saches que les québécois, tous sans exception, ont ce soir une pensée pour tout les français et les musulmans de la terre. J'ai même entendu parler(trop tard pour que j'y aille) de veiller dehors… A apprécier doublement je le demande, puisqu'il fait -35 et moins(en celcius) en température ressentie dehors. Sachez, tout les français et musulmans(les vrais, j'insiste), que vous avez tout notre soutien dans cette épreuve que des êtres de peu de conscience et de jugement ont eu l'idiotie de vous mettre.
@Silverblade : I mind, only a few of the muslim are stupide enough to think that killing anyone is really worth it.
A crusade would, as always, lead to more death on the civilian side mainly, stirring more the anger of a few imbeciles, but powerfull enough to enlist others and we come back to start, just with less humanity,
Don't cave in to the terrorists, people of France.
Pas d’inquiétude !!
La très très grande majorité d’entre nous sommes beaucoup plus intelligents que cela !!
J’ai envie de cité une phrase datant de la guerre civile espagnole : « No Pasaran »
Don’t worry !!
The biggest majority of us are more more intelligent than that !!
I want to quote a phrase coming from the Spanish civil war: « No Pasaran »
These were simply political extremists using the cover of religion to provoke still more extremism from mainstream French so that they can recruit still more French muslims. Don't fall for it like we fell for 9/11, trading away our freedom for security.
http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contra…
I also have feeble but not unexistant hopes for my coutry's reaction, let's hope, let's hope…
Still, I could do with moderate scapegoating, it would alleviate the distress, a little bit.
I'm thinking of Facebook :
– their terms of use STILL FUCKING ALLOW beheadings of infidels, in videos and photos
– it's OK to have groups advocating jihad, murder, and, more generally, religious hatred
– their algorythms auto-suggest new people to meet and follow, and in two chapters and two days of activity, it has been proven that even innocent queries will lead you to pages and groups full of hatred and murder, murder in advocacy and murder in display (French pages, but it's easy to google for other similar articles : http://www.20minutes.fr/monde/1455907-20141007-dj… , and, even much better, but now that page isn't anymore free for view, I'm certain there will be webpages cloning it here and there though : http://www.arretsurimages.net/chroniques/2014-10-… )
With all the money Facebook is earning, they could fucking hire many more moderators and very clearly forbid all that shit. Shitstorming about it would allow a part of the pain and anger to be soothed away for the French, I feel.
Facebook will ban nice and harmless people for not using a nickname or anything other than their "real" name — all to "prevent bullying and abuse"
But when it comes time to do something about real hatemongers and bullies they are mysteriously inactive — it's not important if that leads to suicide and murder.
But that's another topic.
EDIT: Reading more information in the news, seeing the videos, those murdered at Charlie Hebdo believed greatly in freedom of speech; and their deaths will not be in vain.
These attackers and others like them seek to silence the voices of reason, yet all they will accomplish is to create more voices and find themselves isolated and hunted down for their crimes.
You have a region filled with disposable men without an outlet for their anger/detachment. So they do violent acts to gain the world's attention and all under the guise of religion.
Fortunately the world is tired and striking back hard against these hollow men. They even attack their fellow Muslims as in the case of ISIS and find themselves fighting a battle on too many fronts to survive.
But fundamentalism won't be completely defeated with bullets or bombs, but with truth, cameras, books, and opportunities for all.
It's hard to recruit angry, young people when they're noticed, educated, employed, and well paid.
To be fair, the publishers at the newpapers were asking for it. Their works were needlessly provocative and would have led to disaster no matter what. words like "still no attacks in France” is just asking for a terrorist attack to happen. And what would have happened if the terrorists had acted upon these words and set off a bomb in a public area? The blood of innocents would be on the hands of the terrorists, but also in theirs, for provoking the attack. Hating the terrorists is one thing, but if you know that something is dangerous, why go out of your way to provoke it. There's a line between freedom of speech and being foolhardy, and they chose the latter. I wish things had been different, because if they had, these people would have been alive today.
Blaming the victim of a crime is NEVER acceptable. No one should have to stop doing something that is completely legal, because a criminal told them to stop "or else".
you're right but it would be a stupid idea to keep doing it nonetheless. that was the point of the post i think?
The point of what post ?
My post ? That I started with the I-don't-give-a-fuck-forbidden image of Muhammad, parodiated into saying he had assholes among his followers ?
DC123's post/comment.
What a stupid answer !
See, DC123, I think you're a fucking living piece of shit, and your words are telling the terrorists were right. You're condoning terrorism, and you're a total hypocrite. Sleazebag.
I couldn't be more against what you say, I couldn't disagree more.
But even then, if you were to meet me face to face, I wouldn't hit you in the face.
I wouldn't call for bullying you either.
I wont' use your email provided with your comment to try doxxing you either.
Cause Freedom Of Fucking Speech. You can say things that drive me fucking MAD, and it is your goddamn right.
sure, but he wouldn't say things that drive you fucking mad if you were holding a gun to his head and prepared to pull the trigger now would he?
because that would be a stupid thing to do.
and he certainly would not want to provoke you were you ready to murder complete strangers unrelated to him for the sake of a belief.
not only is that immoral but irresponsible.
" and your words are telling the terrorists were right. You're condoning terrorism, and you're a total hypocrite. Sleazebag. "
I disagree. "the publishers at the newpapers were asking for it." may have been a poor choice of words but i don't think dc123 ever said anywhere in his comment that he supported the terrorists actions in any way or that somehow the assassinations were the right thing to do (however much you or anyone else might think he was implying) so he was not victim blaming.
when you have a bunch of irrational crazy people who are prepared to go all the way and a bit more the last thing you want to do is provoke them.
Oliver, even without your comment, everyone think the same as you. It's not worth it to spent your time babbling about freedom of f*cking speech, morale, or anything to people like that. It's not that they don't understand, it's they just don't care.
freedom of speech – you throw that term around as though you understand what it means.
freedom of speech includes a freedom to criticize – and I choose to exercise that right to criticize those who claim they are GRIEVING (how pathetic) when really they are just angry and afraid.
guys, you see this, right? Like I told you all before (above), it's not worth it to reasoning with them about freedom of speech etc.. and this is the proof of what I said before.. LoL
and hitchmeister, what you said to me, I can also said the same back to you
which is what? i said a few things in my previous post.
Somebody has an opinion that is different from everybody else and you label me as "one of them" (whatever the hell that is).
You do not take the time to try and work out what I am saying or dispute anything I say. Instead you hide behind a laughable facade of moral superiority, knowing full well your ability to debate any subject is sorely lacking and your ideas, borrowed from mass opinion, built on shaky ground.
I may make lots of assumptions but I am willing to bet they are true. Continue to live in ignorance – fool.
Our country is still grieving, and there's a lot of supporting to the victims and their relatives, but that's exactly what fucking kind of idea is emerging.
So what ? Are you just saying that we shouldn't react to all the crimes throughout the world, here humoristically, in the fear to stir the fire ? Should we just shut the fuck up before people who acts in the name of a God and a religion they seemingly misunderstand ? People who speak in the name of Muslims when a lot of Muslims people never asked for something like that ?
All of these parodies were about making fun and enlightening the fact that their integrit Islam IS NOT Islam. I'm not Muslim, and I admit I don't know much about their religion, but I seriously doubt that they would agree with those kind of people and acts. And I think Charlie Hebdo's journalists were thinking the same. And this act just proved them right.
I have to comment a point:
I live in São Paulo, where there is a very organized Muslim community, and such a community has never, as far as I have noticed and heard, been involved in conflicts – neither generated by them nor faced by them. In a district named Bom Retiro, you can find Muslims, Jews, Koreans and Chinese making business side by side, with all sorts of races existing as clients and cohabiting in São Paulo – and all the sorts of miscegenation possible in such a city.
We certainly have problems in a city like São Paulo – lots of. But I have learned here that it is possible to have Muslims and Jews as neighbours without facing the apocalypse. Unfortunately, there are fanatics everywhere, and I am really afraid that sooner or later they will start acting here as well. The day that happens, it will explode like an atomic bomb in a multiracial-multicultural environment like this city, and then it will happen what I call the triumph of the beasts.
Yeah, I've seen your previous comment about the "triumph of the beasts", I totally agree with that. In every domain there are crazy people who speak for others, when it's only about THEIR own beliefs. And in the end, they manage to stir the anger and hatred in others' hearts, and carry them away in their so-said and self-proclamed "just cause"…
However, I heard that the French Muslim Community condemned that massacre and encouraged Muslim people to respect a minute of silence, and there are many interviews where Muslim people say that the slaughter absolutely doesn't represent their beliefs at all.
France has long been subject to immigration and, just as you Brazilian people, we have all lived together in relative peace, despite what the National Front may have said and keeps on saying now. But because of these "beasts" as you say, everything is being questioned.
I hope that won't happen for you too, pal. It's a total stupid question, but I'll never understand why people from different cultures will never be in peace, and why there's always a Damocles sword upon multicultural places, even when we all lived together for long. But I hope those "beasts" will never really triumph.
It takes a minute to destroy, and a year to rebuild, my great-uncle used to say.
I hope you'll avoid that situation, Alexandrine, may the hate-mongers fail in your country
"Are you just saying that we shouldn't react to all the crimes throughout the world, here humoristically, in the fear to stir the fire ?"
Yes, funny to you maybe, definitely not so to every muslim. The image of muhammad is sacred. You are asking them to ignore their faith. How would you feel if some stranger spat on your mother? (I get that example from a christian actually, but I think it is relevant)
"enlightening the fact that their integrit Islam IS NOT Islam"
and who exactly decides this?
religion is subjective ie. it depends on the person. you have no right to tell anyone what to believe. their belief has just as much chance of being true as any other even if you do not agree with it.
you don't know there is nothing in scripture that glorifies violence do you?
Okay, I guess I can't really get it since I'm not Muslim (actually, I don't believe in any religion at all), so I understand that some felt offended by the drawings. That said, is it a reason to just go and kill people ? I mean, shit, of course there are things that would offend me too, just like the example you gave, but here we are just talking about stupid drawings. But maybe it's beyond my comprehension, indeed. In that case, isn't their act justified then ? Everyone would seek revenge after all ! In the example you gave, people would probably hit the person who spat on their mother, so let's say say it's the same here. I think you're not saying that the murderers were right, but just that the editorial team went too far. Okay., perhaps. But then do you think that the answer was appropiated ? That it is just a backfire ?
About the second part of your comment, actually I agree. That may sound gross from an agnostic, but I do think that religion is personal, too. So no one should speak for others. My sentence was wrong, indeed theirs beliefs may be a version of Islam. But when they speak about it, they really look like they're speaking for everyone, when it's far from being the case, apparently. But what I meant, is that I'm not sure that the basics of their religion encourage such violence. But maybe I'm wrong.
And, sorry, but I ain't got what you meant in your last sentence, could you explain ?
my mistake: you know scripture glorifies violence don't you?
late night.
" In the example you gave, people would probably hit the person who spat on their mother, so let's say say it's the same here."
And what will you do if after that they will again and again spat on your mother, for fun and revenge for what you did, and mayb doing mooore like puncture tires on her car or ravaging her garden. Nothing serious< something that you hardly can proof to policeman, and that your mother can't prevent by herself, and you cant guard her whole day.
Seriously think what will you do in this situation. (and this will really correspond whith that, becouse muslim tell them to stop laughing over prophet, but they only do it more and more).
what if one of your family (for example, your spouse) was one of the publisher at that newspapers, then their works were needlessly provocative and then one day your loved ones brutally murdered by terrorists. Feeling devastated, angry, grieving, then, here I come to you saying "well, this happens because your spouse or one of your family were asking for it" what would you feel?
How about raise them as culture man who will not laugh over something precious to others?
muslim also laugh over something precious to others, sometimes more than that, so, they're just the same.
so what? the religious are hypocrites, what else is new? no need to poke them with a stick.
who poke them with a stick? it was muslim first who poke with their own brother and sister first, so people around the world criticize them, and for charlie hebdo, they criticize it with caricature, but muslim poke them with AK47 and rocket launcher, and what you don't understand is: they poke humanity with AK47 in the name of religion.
Nevada: "Yeah but they started it!!"
They were asking for emotional and/or intellectual reactions. That's what satire is for. No, they were NOT asking to be shot and killed!
By the way, the first one to die in this attack was a French policeman, who happened to be a Muslim. His name was Ahmed Merabet.
I don't like it when people make fun of another's ones belief , but killing them because of it is damn wrong
It's funny: The Muslim community chastises us for the Crusades, but, hey, their conquest of Spain and invasion of present day France until running into a chap by the name of Charles Martel, well, that was okay, of course. Never mind that's what set up the willingness for the Crusades to occur, we're not allowed to talk about that. They're allowed to censor us at will, and force us to censor ourselves. And we have far too many leaders on both sides of the Atlantic who are too cowardly to call this for what it is: Islamic fascism.
Vive la France!
We've had our religion wars, protestantism versus catholicism, and it worked like islam versus democracy nowadays. We're being bad guys in turns.
Plus, dude, it's not very practical to mention something that happened six centuries ago
Check what I wrote about the dynamics of civilization, some comments above…
First off, condolences to France, her people, her people lost in the senseless attack, and the level-headed Muslims who are unfortunately grouped in with extremists.
Second, I’m an agnostic who believes religion and real-life shoold be separated from one another. But I chose agnosticism since it allows me to show a certain level of respect for religions and how they operate. And to understand their religion as an English major would do: on the level of a piece of literature. But, even I have little tolerance for those who operate on the notion that belittling one’s own religion and culture is reason enough to commit senseless murder and violence. And, although I admit I know absolutely nothing about Islam and her religion, I’m pretty damn sure everything they did goes against the Quran no matter how much you perverse it to personal agendas.
It’s just unfortunate that the ones who are always caught in the crossfire are those who have nothing to do with said crossfire to begin with. As well as those who are unfortunate enough to be swayed by the words of the charismatic extremist/asshole.
Again, condolences.
Condolences from across the pond, Ollie.
These radical terrorists are a stain upon the reputation and honor of the Islamic faith and they will remain so until the 'peaceful Muslim majority' stands up against them in a clear and vocal manner. They are like the pedophile priests of the Catholic faith – a stain that cannot easily be washed away. So long as the majority remains silent, these are the people that will speak to the world in their name.
You're making a point, here.
While the real muslims cannot be blamed in the slightest, I'm hoping we can expect some added behaviour from them, because here only them can do it : try to exert more influence in real life and in the social media, more talking among each other.
How to say… There's slut-shaming, which is bad. But how about "intolerant-shaming" ? When muslims see among their relations people saying "they had it coming", or when they find some of their friends on facebook are becoming friendly with integrists… SPEAK OUT LOUD. Remind them it sucks, and they're being a disgrace. Remind them the hateful minority is, really, a super small minority, and nowhere close to a role model.
Show your numbers.
That'd be a wonderful thing if muslims would do that shaming (not hatred talking, nope — shaming : meant to embarass, and made the target feel wanting to be accepted again), with, hopefully, as a result, to bring many more people back into the bounds of reason.
so basically you would be telling them (the muslims you are "shaming") they are wrong. which is the same thing as saying their beliefs are incorrect.
I'm sure that will go down well. In fact, I think a slight variation of that has been happening for a long time now and it is still happening? Yes, when one group of people tells another group of people they are not correct and when the subject matter happens to be a very sensitive one with NO REAL ANSWER.
you know the radical muslims are the only true muslims, I'm sure you know that. you just have to ask them.
radical muslims are the only true muslims? so, you mean the real and true muslims are people who ruthlessly slaughtered people using Islam to justify their violence? Since when Islam (even any religion) taught people to kill others? as a muslim I'm truly offended, and so far, all of your comments are just provocative, intolerance, unethical, unwise, immature and so naive, you and your way of thinking are no better than those terrorists.. What wrong with your head? Look, even the leaders of Islam and most muslim around the world are cursing this incident whatever-the-reason-is-and-they-dont-care-what-causing-it. So, shut the fuck up, because people like you and your way of thinking gave bad name and stain the name of Islam to the world, this is why non-muslims stereotyping us (muslim) as terrorists and creating muslim-phobia throughout the world, thanks to people like you who made Islam rebranded as a religion that full of violence and hatred!!
You missed the point of this so I will take the time to explain it to you slowly. There can never be "true" or "false" with something that can be interpreted in so many ways. Did you get that? Probably not.
you don't like my comments, you are just one of many. get in line
No, I got all your point. Of course many don't like your comments, it's understandable why, and I'm not the only one, that's why no one reply your comment.. because they think it's not worth it to argument with people like you. Did you get that? Probably not, until I said it to you.
"no one reply" huh? you mean like you?
"you got my point" which means you must have chosen to reply with a strawman – which means you are intellectually dishonest.
but no, i will give you the benefit of doubt – you ARE clinically retarded after all. like the proverbial sheep you are somebody who follows the whims of the masses without any thought; there can never be any meaningful conversation with someone like you.
and you are just far more worse than me, justifying the violence acts because of caricature. Of course there can never be any meaningful conversation, because it was you, who are clinically retarded but denies it and calling other clinically retarded.. I'd rather be a intellectually dishonest, rather than intellectually retarded just like you who claim themselves as 'intellect', calling other intellectually dishonest, but unable to understand (or maybe denied) other's simple common sense
I NEVER justified any act of violence, so do not say I do you simple piece of shit.
Expect they already do so , by in large the Muslim community do not preach violence and Imam in their little mosque frequently call their follower to keep the peace and denounce the radical view of the extremist .
The very first victim of said extremist are those moderate , those peacekeeper , but you don't hear about that . Because in most case the media only call them or relate their positions when their is a tragedy . You can't have it both way and especially in France there is a multitude of little association who try to preach tolerance and are wholly ignored but suddenly when the worst happen people start to ask them why they didn't speak louder or demand they denounce (which they already did ).
I am no a Muslim myself far from it , and what happened yesterday is a tragedy , it's horrible and what make it worse is that it happen everyday in country we ignore .Above it all the worse is those young french son of Immigrated who on twitter and other say Charlie deserved it .
It's an abomination to have let the situation rot so much to see those kind of comment appear , and there is I think what should be the core of the political issue , how did this happen . How our own kinsmen could do that kind of thing in the name of a religion they do not understand .
I have watched a movie on "lcp" a week or two ago about just that the indoctrination of young male children of immigrate into terrorism . In it you see the horror and the desolation of a mother who see her son slip into fanaticism who try to explain to him how he his mistaken on his faith .
Muslim are ashamed of it and do all they can to prevent that kind of horror but the issue is not as simple as that , it as to deal with how the western world have use immigration and know Islam as a scapegoat for everything and nothing . How desolate the future of those young idiot is and how little our government plan to do anything about it .
Let's be a little less blind about the situation please .
People often say hentai readers only have one thing on their mind, but the discussion here is on a level above what I've seen elsewhere on this topic.
The editorial staff of Charlie firmly believed in freedom of speech and in not caving in to threats and acts of violence. We should remember them as people who proudly stood up for their beliefs. My heart goes out to them and their families.
Vive la France libre!
This is what they get for allowing muslums into the country. Yes it is racist, but hey if I gotta pay for someone elses crimes, and pay lazy black people who only fuck and live on welafare… then the innocent muslums gotta pay for their brothers crimes as well. That will make them rise up, like how I feel about about lazy niggers. Since I gotta pay for the 'victims' shit, I 'd rather just kill'em/kick'em out. Kick'em all out, and I'm not even white, not even .0001 percent white.
Well, I'm black. And unlike you, LITERATE.
Fuck you and your convenient racist bullshit.
Zumikiss, I think you shouldn't even bother answering to something SO provocative and stupid.
A shit-comment like that is auto-discreding itself, and not worth anything.
I agree. Savior is a dumbass.
But, hitchmeister, you're no better than Savior.
hmm, maybe.
but for someone whose only comment is to make a personal attack I can say with complete confidence: I am better than you.
ohh i lovve it when you motherf*kers talk shit behind a computer screen..beeing stupid n all discussing matters way over your lilttle stupid head while looking at pictures of naked girls…oow what will i give to get you standing here in front of mr savior..no one will save you from me then that i can assure you..
Much respect Oliver. Don't let them think that violence can make the world bend to their will
oh yes, provoke more terrorist attacks instead, how noble.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Or die.
Not working with terrorism, even a police state can't do much against guerilla from the inside. At best it can be quick to react after it is too late.
fundamentalist muslims are muslims as well.
all religion is a triumph of belief over facts, and feelings over objective reasoning.
Check out what I wrote about the dynamics of civilizations, plenty of comments above…
you got it wrong, fundamentalist muslims are muslims who are able to do unimaginable things to others by using religion to justify their acts for their political interests in the name of religion.
how were the people who were killed this morning (10 January) politically motivated?
idiot.
Artiste, humain et français je dois dire que c'est vraiment un triste jour pour moi et une immense perte pour le monde, mais si la liberté d'expression s'est pris un coup dans l'aile aujourd'hui demain elle s'en relèvera encore plus belle et glorieuse.
putain de fanatiques…… si seulement ils pouvaient arrêter de venir nous faire chier et garder leurs croyances pour eux, on as rien demandé nous ! Leurs croyances sont liberticides, le contraire même de notre patrie ! Il faut qu'ils arrêtent d'essayer de changer l'eau en vin !
Heu, c'est de l'humour, le coup de l'eau en vin ?
(oui, smiley de sourire forcé, mais il faut, il faut !)
eh bien non ce n'est pas un coup d'humour mon cher oliver ( désolééé T.T ) mais bien une métaphore sur le fait qu'ils pensent nous faire peur alors qu'on est une nation de "rigolards" et que nous n’arrêterons jamais de nous foutre de la gueule de tout le monde même sous la menace. Parce que faut pas déconner, nos ancêtres n'ont pas fait la révolution pour qu'on ferme notre gueule à la moindre injustice n'est-ce pas ?
Thank you Oliver, I'm a muslim, IMO, I found NOTHING wrong with your opinion..
But, what makes me offended isn't the content nor the picture of this caricature, what makes me offended is WHY THEY MUST KILL PEOPLE?? No religion taught us to kill people!!
What I hate from this incident is, just as you said, Muslims once again (as always) will suffer having scum using our religion to wrongly justify the unforgivable..
..I hope those killers and fundamentalists deserved a 'well' place in afterlife (like burning hell)
thet lost mind and imans.. that why they kill people
I can understand your frustration to a certain extent, however if Europe has such fanatical Muslims that commit acts that are deemed by Moderate Muslims as HARAM (dirty) like murder, destruction and creating unmendable divides among Muslims and even outside the religion itself. Asia has far worse examples of those, and some institutionalised like the PERKASA and ISMA in Malaysia as well as Islamic Fundamentalist Parties in Indonesia just to name a few. These countries have extremists who have smuggled themselves into Syria and Iraq to fight for the "ISIS" terror group. In those cases, it's not just them losing those minds, it's also the "teachings" of the imams who ALSO lost their minds too. That region not only have parties or organisations that support such fundamentalism, but ALSO Governments in the mix as well.
In that region, not only people (and religious figures) who speak up for Moderate Islam (as a religion of peace) face religious and legal persecution, they also are facing roadblocks in all directions by those in power in their respective countries, like Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Brunei just to name a few. And I personally feel extremely pessimistic about any upturns in such sorry fortunes for those who already took the step to speak up (against extremist fundamentalism), regardless of the sect in Islam (Shia, Sunni or other minority sects) that they subscribe to.
I suspect that such peaceful co-existence can only last in a Church, in Israel's Old Jerusalem no less, in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where a place of CHRISTIAN significance is guarded by two MUSLIM families (one guards the door and the other holds the keys) for the past 800 or so years without untoward incident.
Life is already hard enough. Why kept on going with conflict each other?
Why paint the sun with dark colors?
Why keep polluting oxygen with toxic gas?
Tolerance is hard, but we need it or none will survive.
Many years ago, the movie "The last temptation of Christ" by F. F. Coppola was showed in theaters here in Italy. Despite being considered a wonderful deep movie by many Catholics, a bunch of "catholic fundamentalists" found it disrespectful (mainly because they didn't got its meaning – too ignorant for that) and decided to torch a teather full of people. Luckily the only consequences were some tens of injured with no victims…
Must we be glad our religious fanatics are no better ? At least, hopefully, now even them have been tamed down, grrr.
Respect to you our French brothers and sisters. We feel your pain. We recently went through our own attack leaving 3 dead (including the gun man…shame that…); that shocked, angered and moved my nation. I saw a cartoon on a news site, just one amoung the many draw this past day; drawn out of and in respect and of the need to not let the bastards stifle our 'voices'.
A gun man stands over a body and says: "He drew first…"
/hugs
so funny when one pupliche copie right of mangaka … and talk about freedem right .. _for me they deserve to died i hope you will happy when puplche some think can hurt you .. _ pleas a word sorry for the islm … i puplish this photo thisi the most shit think i see
like im sorry i will shot you … if you want be not publish this shit photo racisme …
.. you know how it hurt ansult but you .. fak/*** puplich the photo ….._people talk about freedom but they just want see their ..news paper seel … how ansult a messanger is a freedom ??_
and i want never see a man how seel the ather people .. work .. talk about .. freedom right
abd pleas delet this photo if you respect people .. but what i think about a thiefe how publish ather woek …..
hope u can delete this picture…i know u need show respect to frenn.. but this pic will make sone one will mad also.. te problem will not solve if all think islam terorist.. coz the of few people to stupid in thinking.. and islm not teach to people say bad to other releigoin…and also toher releigion i think.. coz i islam.. and i also have other freinds not same religoin…so plezz we respect u all and plezz respect us back.. or this think will never end…
I like the picture very much, it says the truth.
80% or more of the Muslim around me are idiots, their prophet should be ashamed of them anyway.
If you live within them, you'll feel it. I lived in a Muslim country, I'm not a Muslim.
I don't hate them, but just keep them far far away from me please.
If we delete those images then the terrorists are winning, for the disappearances of opinions hurting them is what they wanted.
I'm sorry but I can't do that, you must live with the fact it's a world where some people express opinions offending you and those opinions may occasionally reach you.
Only one solution : look away. Move on, move to pages where you are not exposed to what you disapprove.
you guys talk about religion this religion that. just make it simple.
IT ALL POLITICS = "everything is right for my purpose" so does religion.
and sadly people now days lack of tolerence and self judge. still got no solution for more corrupt humanity
So basically war is the only thing to reduce the mad of all the people of france. And also, from now on, all muslims must care your walk around the street, u can easily be raped, killed for money, …. without police service, or they just simply ignore u all to dead if there is something bad happens.
Too late, even for blaming your brothers about that acted which lead 12 people died.
I think what Charb, one of the assassinated journalist, said make lot of sense.
Not so long ago, the previous office of this journal had been burned after they published a satyric drawing of Muhammad. Charb replied during an interview that the best punishment for the culprits who burned their office was to be forced to read ENTIRELY the Coran.
I agree that all religion can be used as a reason for stupid violent actions. However, as you mentioned that there is a large momentum for Islam, the biggest issue is the schizophrenia of most Muslims who actually have little ideas of the complete content of their own religion. Most of the practitioners have only been taught a part of its content. And even this small content is subject to interpretations. Interpretations that are naturally subject to terrible mistakes.
I have many Muslim friends I made through my life. But I have to admit : a Muslim will never become my friend if he does not agree that what he learnt is full of mistakes. Oliver, you and I are french, and I am sure you are aware of the deep issues of integration in our own country. However, it has been years that in france, people, politicians and citizens, are not able to publicly say freely that what us believed by Muslims is full of misunderstanding. This national taboo led us to this situation. Those journalists were few of those who never stopped pointing this out.
I will never have a long discussion with a Muslim who do not recognized his mistakes. And to become conscious of those, I would recommend them to read Wikislam website http://wikiislam.net/wiki/
This website is blocked and considered "pornographic" by Soudi Arabia. I was accepting that their country could not stand to show weaknesses in the Charia, since it is the law governing their country.
However, today, I cannot agree to this anymore. The world is connected. Having a country blindly enforcing an imperfect text is causing minorities in other countries to make terrible acts.
I do not defend the idea that western culture should invade again a country. It is a bad idea. However, I think that Muslims, the intelligent ones, need to control a bit more the beliefs of some of their practitioners and destroy the source of obscurantism.
I think this is the second time I write a comment in this webpage even though I follow it since probably it's begginning. I'm Spanish, a passionnate of French culture and litterature, catholic, and practicant, and I might like more or less the fact that something as sacred for me as my religion is the center of mockery, but to resort to any kind of violence as a way to defend it is simply wrong. No excuses, simply wrong, wrong and wrong.
Religions are something personal. There shouldn't be any institutions, rules or whatever. Institutions are one of the bane of this world.
Among wide known religions, I respect only 2: hinduism and buddhism.
Other known religions are a way to control simple minded people, and are usually full of rules and hate against life.
Both Hinduism and Buddhism have far more rules than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. If it's rules you don't like, you should not respect any religion. Nor any government. Nor any country. Nor any civilisation.
Part 1
"I am in my beliefs an atheist, but my practice is of an Agnostic". I read this, many years ago, in a book by Bertrand Russel (Why i am not a Christian), and i subscribe it. I think that all religions are evil and dangerous, because they connect people under a banner, that lead to the exclusion of all others. And that is extremism. I saw it in political parties, football clubs, etc.. It's ok to sympathize with a club, but to injure or kill others because their sympathy lies with other colors, or town, is a truthful way of being stupid. And the same for allowing someone to speak on your behalf, be that a president of a club, the leader of a party, an Iman, or the Pope. I can agree or disagree with the word of any leader, be it my favourite or not, but i don't give a blank check to anyone that i will allways agree to what he thinks. And all this is concerned with culture and intelligence (tolerance is part of both).
Part 2
So, i am afraid that tolerance, and respect for different views and opinions, is going to take a long time to be achieved, between one banner and the other banners (maybe generations), because it is a slow process of education, although it has been evolved through the years. Cities used to fight between themselves for things we now consider irrelevant. Countries are still in conflict over oil, or minerals, or religion. And still, in more evolved societies that is considered barbaric. In time, in Africa or the Middle East, or even in Eastern Europe, people will realize that they are being manipulated to serve the interests of a few, and paying with their own lives. The true democratic societies will have to protect its citizens against intolerance, without limiting too much their own freedom. My freedom stops when it interferes with someonelse's freedom. I think the cartoon is funny, and that is, by itself, a good reason to post it. But i also think that they are assholes.
look, first of all, to all people who hates muslims by majority: i won’t be mad at you… the religion has been bad company, especially by the media, since Bush (you know which Bush i’m talking about)
secondly, you need to know muslims individually… not all of us are bad people… those extremists, we hate them too… no matter what.. but, i can’t deny that there are people like that, no matter what their religions are… and they, usually, misused the hadith and surrah on our holy book for their own purposes… and no, they worked like a secret society… it is so hard to catch them
third of all, we DON’T want our prophet to be on any “carricatures”, or “paintings”, or “statues”… because… you need to know the reason behind it… in the muslim golden ages, mohammed NEVER want to even CONSIDER himself as a messenger of god and NEVER wanted to be an object of worship… because he knows his role as a prophet, and he is not any different than any human he ever met… therefore, we never put him on paintings or statues like jesus does…
the reason i tell you this, is that… the carricature drawer had gone too far with his jokes, some of our “fundementalists” got mad and killed him… no, he may not see it coming, but he lacks of knowledge with that third info i just tell you (which was unfortunate, because, once again, it tainted our religion’s name… again) if you are telling me that its okay to make mohammed a carricature like jesus, no, it is not okay, not ever…
i am usually on humanity’s side, and i see that making jokes and comics about a certain important individual on a certain religion WITHOUT knowing if it is allowed or not is just as the same thing as being disrespectful and offensive for one’s believe… which is illogical because jokes was supposed to be funny, and never too offensive to the subject that was being fooled about
ugh, what the hell, i’m here to read asian smut cartoons, who cares about our opinions anyway
That's the point , he didn't go too far , there is no too far , understand that in France Religion is a private thing , you may think it's in bad taste you may have any opinion you want, you may even take it too court were your feeling will be taking into account but you may not be violent .
The whole point of the caricature was never about your prophet , it's was about the people who take your religion and twist it into a justification to enact atrocity in order to establish their dominion . It wasn't an insult to the Muslim community it was a way to bring about an issue through laughter , your reaction is understandable , the catholic church had the same in their time but understand we did not stop because of their feeling or there inquisition it's not going to stop now .
It wasn't an insult to the Muslim community
++++++++++++++++
insult mohammed is insult to islam ….
remenber that ………..
unfortunately, not all the muslim understand the caricature, or perhaps more appropriately they don't want to understand the whole point of caricature, as long as there's mohammed in their caricature, they perceived it as an insult, so that's why they got mad..
Saying that you DON'T (you forgot exclamation marks and death threat) want to see your prophet on anything is just wrong. Keep your belief private, and don't try to force others to follow YOUR own rules (or those you chose to follow).
And no, not all religions have murderers, only the worst ones. Have you ever heard of a buddhist killer ?
hhhhhhhh what world that we live with no rispect
i will rape your mother that somthink that many believe respzct them aftze they rape her ;;;;
Can you rephrase so I can understand what's all about with mother raping ? You are so much into mature stuff. Not my cup of tea but I can accept that as long as it's fictional and helps you relieve stress. By the way, you need to relieve way more. Go fap 2-3 times in a row and then come back.
oh thanks … and you know tp day they bmob a black people office NNACB BMBING in usa …
it will be no ………..
so go fap 4-5 and know when insult someone some time yOur ass get kik
I tried to connect the dots, but it only made lines, I'm disappointed, I was hoping for a picture of muhammad sucking dicks ._.
i tell you just stupid in this planet when they dont have to said insult you or what you like …………
Ara, please, it's not right to bully the mentally challenged
Ara wrote: "Have you ever heard of a buddhist killer ?"
Yes. I have. Google it. https://www.google.com/search?q=muslim+police+off…
w'e tell the brother respect as change the photo ……………it happen??????
and people tell as why dont talk with them ………
why didnt respct as .. trzaay respact what we love first
Im an american soldier and i had some good friends who where in the french army when i served in afghanistan, i prey that none of them where hurt by this cowardly attack. i know i speak for alot of folks in the military comunity who love the freedom to say what ever they like that we mourn for our French brothers and sisters and like they used to say before convoys….VIVA LA FRANCE!
if you insult someone …… don't get mad when they backfire
it just tooo simple
Your argument: So if you would insult me with words – you should not be mad at me for backfiring.
Not mad if I insult you back with words and not if I insult you back by killing you? It is all the same to you?
In my opinion that can´t be right.
That's a part of the problem, the people deliberately only using a tiny fraction of their brain and making their best to stay stupid, not realizing they're being stupid.
(trying hard to do throw Lucy – the movie – jokes)
I’d never think see a serious discussion on a porn site
Then you haven't been long enough on Hentairules, check the "just talking" category, occasionally there's real dope in there
Sorry to say that but I'm not tolerant person. I have simple rule of three: Information, Warning, Retaliation. When it comes to stuff I do find offending me. First I inform the person that I dislike what said person said to me, finding it offensive. When that person ignores me and keeps telling me the bad thing I warn that person sternly explaining the rule of three and that he hit second mark. If it doesn't get to that dude's head I resort to a apopriate retaliation.
Thus, I believe that these murderers deserve Hell, but I also know it's just my hatred of assholes speaking … or for fellow Christians, devil whispering into my ear.
I don't believe in what comes as tolerance in today's Europe or my own country. It looks like favoritism of one kind of opinion that encourages favoured opinion proponents towards excess, since they get a feeling they can.
Oliver, I dislike this picture because it's fugly. I heard that in Islam making pictures, monuments of animals and people and especially God is sacrilege and equivalent of sin for Christians. And people of Islam. These humans did it in your religion's name. Crying over spilled milk is pure hypocrisy. Were any of you react to these pictures in law-abiding manner would probably serve as proper outlet of your oturage with the actions that count as sin in your religion.
In my country it would be suing the paper for "anti-religious hatred" or for "doing harm to my personal space". Thus you would have case in front of the court where you could clearly voice whys and whats.
But doing nothing is like passive approval of these so-called terrorists. Same with the suicide-murderers. Even after I consulted one muslim I know, and he confirmed to me that for his religion suicide is a Mortal Sin as well. In short, one-way and un-avoidable ticket to Hell.
In the end, Oliver, I won't say fake words of compassion. My personal belief is that compassion is done in acts on behalf of the suffering and helpless. Dead are dead and we shouldn't use them to wipe our faces after we speak things in their name, it's tarnishing their memory since they are defenseless to deny anything. Cause as dead people, they can't.
Instead I wish you and your countrymen that the root of the cause to be solved decisively and, as we are going with good-wishes, with the minimum necessary harm. Good night and may next morning brighten your life.
Thanks for the words
Although, from now personal experience, I found that cheering words from total strangers still have a considerable pain soothing effect, it's like feeling many pats on the shoulders, it prevents feeling weak and alone. If you meet in real life someone who experienced real shit, just do that, a pat, a word of sympathy, something to show there's human warmth directed at him, it's like painkillers
Just one thing.
Do you really think that this is funny?
Mock another's religion and think that they will laugh with you and all will be happy?
From the start i think that this caricatures are stupid and uncultured.
If you are insulting someone just for jaught you must be ready that someday he will hit you in face.
If you want to laugh over someone, laugh at yourself, and then you will not injure anyone.
I know that i will be granted by many dislikes, bet if you think that this is freedom of speach, than try to think sometimes about morale.
They were caricaturing the fanatic , the people who take your silly little religion and use it to impose their dominion . Every educated and cultured sac of shit knew that and why you can question the good taste of the joke you are not compelled to laugh but you will tolerate it because this ain't the XII Century and you don't burn people in the name of a belief .
Let's begin to draw line on freedom of speech and soon we won't be free to clothe ourselves the way we want , to love the way we want , to eat the way we want . Get over yourselves .
BUT ABOVE ALL ELSE do not begging to justify that kind of violence , no matter what you think of the caricature , they didn't in no universe of mine deserve to be killed for it .
You think that this is a freedom of speach?
Freedom to insult anyone you want?
That's stupid.
If you think that if you stop to insult anyone and soon you can not say anything, than maybe all that you tell before was only insults?
I agree.
"Freedom of speech" is a nice thing to have; if not the greatest thing to have. "Freedom of speech" should not have to mean "freedom to insult," "freedom to be douche bags," nor "freedom to wave your ugly hairy dick around, thinking nobody's gonna report you or do something about you." As with everything, the line needs to be drawn.
As much as I'm saddened for more unnecessary loss of life; what the Hebdo was doing was poking the hornet's nest. Eventually, the few hornets will end up stinging somebody to death.
And finally; "sword versus pen?" The pen will win in the long run, but the people behind the pen will never see the day of victory (since they've already been killed by the sword). Which is why it's better to outlive the [douchebaggery] behind the sword, then live to tell the tale for future generations in order to keep it from every happening again. (Naivety, whatever.)
before you saying your unwise comments that full of hatred, just take a look to the muslim first! It's not just them (non-muslim) who mocking us (muslim), even muslim mocking Christiant too! there are still some of us (muslim) sometimes mocking other religion too!
Do you think it's funny if other religion mocking with us, muslim? Of course not! But is it funny if muslim also do the same things? mocking other religions, sometime branded all non muslim as heretics? Of course not!!
We live in civilized society, we live with others and they're not the same with us, therefore we need to be tolerant to the others, we need to be more wise dealing with everything. If someone insulting to you, do you need to respond it with violence? What if that person insulting you because in the past you were also insulting him/her before? Whatever the cause/reason, you need to be wise, save your barbaric intent, save your immorale comment, look at what Mahatma Ghandi shows us in the past, no need violence to show protest! Open your eyes! Most people of the world, even most muslim in the world are cursing this violence, they don't see the cause of this incident (they mocking our prophet) but this unnecessary violence acts. How could you preaching about morale but your comment just so unwise justifying that kind of violence?
Why do you think? that I justife violence?
I think that kilers bust be found and judjed.
But igniting hatred between races you only prolonged violence.
Noone mustn't insult over because they think that its fun.
And this ending was enevitable one day or another.
Tolerance is just the form of hipocrisy. One of commandment of the Bible is "Treat others as you want them to treat you". What they think radical muslims will do if they havent world-wide news-company?
Of corse muslims too must treated with respect other nations, as the overs.
who igniting hatred first with fully automatic guns in the morning while croaked hatred messages which not just ignited violence but starting the war? of course this violence will continue, because someone started it first with guns. It wont be happened if they just have a little tolerance and patience about several days, I'm sure (most people will agree) even the magazine will regret it because there will be many reactions (not just muslim) will criticize the picture.
You said tolerance is just the form of hipocrisy? check out the history, the facts, without tolerance, people cannot achieved peace! there were so many times in the past (even now in many places) even all the religion can be peaceful in the same neighborhood because of tolerance.
you messed tolerance and understanding.
There is Great difference then you endure presence of other culture and then you try to understand them.
If you mock my religion, no, I won't always laugh with you. (I might, sometimes, if your mockery is actually funny.) I might even get offended. But I am an adult. I EXPECT people who don't share my religion to mock it from time to time. I don't shoot people who offend me by mocking my religion. If God can't take a joke, he isn't worthy of being worshipped.
I think that most of the humor in Charlie Hebdo is rude, crude, stupid, and uncultured. If you think so, too, then do as I do: don't subscribe to it! Easy. No, you don't have the right to hit everyone who upsets you. You don't have the right to hit ANYONE who upsets you! Grow up!
Quran says non believers should die.
So, believers of this filthy book of hate are either uneducated and brain washed or as dangerous as a nazi.
Godwin point reached with ease.
Thats why Islam evolve and has many teachings like not-radical sunism, that not welcomed in western countrys, and more radical shiites that closer to what you think, but htey really befriended with your politicks.
More accurately, all religions contain holy scriptures that allow murders and abominable behaviour. It's a problem then, between the "modernists" who give up on referring to those bad parts, and the violence-hungry who do refer themselves to it.
Not responding to other comments of yours because I'm writing about it in a future post.
@Blackshard.
Maybe it is not right to insult anothers religion it is however ther right to do so, and no matter how angry that person they have no right to resort to violence whatsoever.
Just look at the Newboro Baptist Church, if there’s anybody who deserves to die for insulting others through the use of free speech it is surely those asshole, but still they’re able to keep spewing their sewage because it is their right to do so.
Everything is precious to somebody so if we had to abide by that we could never say anything, we could not eat meant of any kind and we could probably not eat vegetables either.
@Rikandur That attitude is completely unproductive and exactly the same thing these fundamentalist murderers are doing, to them there has been plenty of warning that slandering the holy prophet is not ok so they have proceeded to take what they saw as appropriate retalliation.
What if France decided that the proper retaliation would be to glass the entire middle east(they have nukes you know)?
@pharos Slandering the prophet may be wrong to muslims but it isn’t to the rest of the world and that is something muslims(or any other religion with similar views on what they hold for holy for that matter) will have to learn to accept. Just shrug it off with that the person is obviously not a muslim and that he’s condemned to hell or something.
Greetings from Sweden, we stand with France.
Je suis Charlie!
@Elldallan, in the world … as I believe, where people are violent monkeys looking for excuse ?
If French lawfully chosen government does it, it's their stuff to do.
Not my interest really, as long as they don't nuke in my neighbournhood. Who I am to dictate other countries behavior during their internal problems.
Were such thing to happen in my country I would be first to loudly argue for kicking all friends, family and associates of said murderers … were they foreigners, back to from where they crawled from. And if local ? Hang them after smearin with pig blood … so we, as country, are spared the hassle and they get message they'll understand. Guests who misbehave should leave, locals who murder wily-nily should be dealt with decisively.
*Everything is precious to somebody so if we had to abide by that we could never say anything, we could not eat meant of any kind and we could probably not eat vegetables either.*
Then how about not insult anyone? Dont you think that courtesy is more apropriate way of speaking in
civilized society?
*What if France decided that the proper retaliation would be to glass the entire middle east(they have nukes you know)?*
Em…. What? Dont you know that France as a part of NATO already destroy many countries in the middle east and this was a blossoming of radical islam. Then maybe you messed reason and consequent?
@Ara So does The Bible, the Torah and most other “holy” books. If you want to use your religion to justify violence it doesn’t matter what religion you profess yourself to, just look at the Crusades for everybody who claims that Christianity is all cuddly and a religion of love more so than others.
The same justification can be made with atheism for that matter as well, because if I only have this life on earth to live then why shouldn’t I live it as good as I can even if it’s at the cost of others.
If you want to justify violence, murder and even genocide then simply anything will do, just twist it until you get what you want.
I have never heard of any buddhist trying to justify violence (nor hindouist, but im less sure). That's probably because their scriptures are crystal clear, while the bible, the torah and the quran were written with the same purpose as laws: enough room to interpret as you want, and with lots of retarded rules.
I can say I'm a buddhist, I'm also a Chinese.
We don't simply kill because we strongly believe in "Karma" (Whatever you do will one day come back at you), everything comes in full circle.
So you kill, sooner or later you or someone you loved would be killed in a way you won't expect.
SIMPLE, isn't it ? If you don't get your Karma in this life, maybe you'll get it in your upcoming life as a dog, snake, or even a bug.
I can agree with your thoughts about the Crusades, but it was done based on the mind set of people living around thousands years ago, not now. not in a hundred years.
Which means that Christians do improve or evolve throughout the years. they change for the better.
Whatever "Jihat" and actions done by the Muslims, there is no excuse, because Muslims simply never improve or evolve, things will only go from bad to worse.
That's how I see in the Muslim in my country.
My own race definately won't marry a Muslim, because they're just fucking stupid and lazy.
I don't need to kill any of them, just make sure to keep them far far away from me.
do u really need to bash and hate muslim that much? i got some muslim friends, but they are not as u described. my friends are smart and do silly things like me. they don't go around bashing my idea or love for hentai. it's up to individual, i guess
Are you ever know about suunits? they not radical, more social and dont liked by Europe goverment.
i'm sure there are plenty of violent buddhists.
the sleep of reason calls forth monsters.
Everybody will die but murder is always wrong.
There is no solutions between people with different faith and believe.
People always stick to what they believes in, until reality slap their face.
Like the journalist who drew the pics then killed, and like the terorist, will be hunted then killed.
i really like how u think mister